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	<title>Comments on: Sour Grapes&#8230;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crawlingroad.com/blog/2009/05/19/sour-grapes/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crawlingroad.com/blog/2009/05/19/sour-grapes/</link>
	<description>The Permanent Portfolio, Investing, Finance and Random Thoughts.</description>
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		<title>By: craigr</title>
		<link>http://crawlingroad.com/blog/2009/05/19/sour-grapes/comment-page-1/#comment-459</link>
		<dc:creator>craigr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 03:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawlingroad.com/blog/?p=1797#comment-459</guid>
		<description>Re: Rbowling,

I really think in the long run that a conservative strategy like the Permanent Portfolio will probably beat more aggressive stock strategies. There is more to investing than trying to get smoking hot returns every year. You need to actually have a plan you could live with when things aren&#039;t going well. Unfortunately many investing portfolios that seem great today quickly lose their appeal after they dish out a heavy loss. I think there needs to be a balance between absolutely best theoretical returns and safety. I think the PP allocation is &quot;good enough&quot; to not need much tweaking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Rbowling,</p>
<p>I really think in the long run that a conservative strategy like the Permanent Portfolio will probably beat more aggressive stock strategies. There is more to investing than trying to get smoking hot returns every year. You need to actually have a plan you could live with when things aren&#8217;t going well. Unfortunately many investing portfolios that seem great today quickly lose their appeal after they dish out a heavy loss. I think there needs to be a balance between absolutely best theoretical returns and safety. I think the PP allocation is &#8220;good enough&#8221; to not need much tweaking.</p>
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		<title>By: craigr</title>
		<link>http://crawlingroad.com/blog/2009/05/19/sour-grapes/comment-page-1/#comment-458</link>
		<dc:creator>craigr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 03:12:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawlingroad.com/blog/?p=1797#comment-458</guid>
		<description>MediumTex,

Wish I&#039;d found out about Browne many years earlier. His advice would have saved me a tremendous amount of money. Funny thing is I voted for him twice for President but had absolutely no idea about his finance background.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MediumTex,</p>
<p>Wish I&#8217;d found out about Browne many years earlier. His advice would have saved me a tremendous amount of money. Funny thing is I voted for him twice for President but had absolutely no idea about his finance background.</p>
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		<title>By: MediumTex</title>
		<link>http://crawlingroad.com/blog/2009/05/19/sour-grapes/comment-page-1/#comment-452</link>
		<dc:creator>MediumTex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 04:49:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawlingroad.com/blog/?p=1797#comment-452</guid>
		<description>I think that Harry Browne was that rarest of things--a true genius.  His insights about investing, human nature, government and freedom are timeless and utterly sound.

The fact that every manner of slicing and dicing of the PP shows that it performs as promised just makes Harry Browne&#039;s intuition that much more impressive to me.  

It is a real privilege to me to be able to share HB&#039;s ideas with others, since so few people are familiar with his thinking and personality.  I suspect craig feels the same way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that Harry Browne was that rarest of things&#8211;a true genius.  His insights about investing, human nature, government and freedom are timeless and utterly sound.</p>
<p>The fact that every manner of slicing and dicing of the PP shows that it performs as promised just makes Harry Browne&#8217;s intuition that much more impressive to me.  </p>
<p>It is a real privilege to me to be able to share HB&#8217;s ideas with others, since so few people are familiar with his thinking and personality.  I suspect craig feels the same way.</p>
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		<title>By: rbowling</title>
		<link>http://crawlingroad.com/blog/2009/05/19/sour-grapes/comment-page-1/#comment-431</link>
		<dc:creator>rbowling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 18:34:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawlingroad.com/blog/?p=1797#comment-431</guid>
		<description>Obviously, back-testing doesn&#039;t insure anything, but I was playing around with Simba&#039;s spreadsheet (found here: http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2520 ) and came up with something interesting.  

Using the default settings on the Portfolio page, if you set an additional variable as the maximum portfolio allocation and then run Excel Solver to maximize the Real Sortino Ratio (a measure of risk adjusted return) with only allowing any one asset to have 25% of your total allocation (don&#039;t put all your eggs in one basket), this is the portfolio that you end up with:

3% US Small Cap Value
25% Emerging Markets
6% International Pacific
25% Long Term Government Bonds
24% 5 Year T-Bills
18% Gold

Wow! That seems an awful lot like the Permanent Portfolio, especially if you consider Harry Browne&#039;s early advice of going for riskier stock investments (if I am remembering correctly). He was crazy like a fox.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously, back-testing doesn&#8217;t insure anything, but I was playing around with Simba&#8217;s spreadsheet (found here: <a href="http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2520" rel="nofollow">http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2520</a> ) and came up with something interesting.  </p>
<p>Using the default settings on the Portfolio page, if you set an additional variable as the maximum portfolio allocation and then run Excel Solver to maximize the Real Sortino Ratio (a measure of risk adjusted return) with only allowing any one asset to have 25% of your total allocation (don&#8217;t put all your eggs in one basket), this is the portfolio that you end up with:</p>
<p>3% US Small Cap Value<br />
25% Emerging Markets<br />
6% International Pacific<br />
25% Long Term Government Bonds<br />
24% 5 Year T-Bills<br />
18% Gold</p>
<p>Wow! That seems an awful lot like the Permanent Portfolio, especially if you consider Harry Browne&#8217;s early advice of going for riskier stock investments (if I am remembering correctly). He was crazy like a fox.</p>
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		<title>By: craigr</title>
		<link>http://crawlingroad.com/blog/2009/05/19/sour-grapes/comment-page-1/#comment-430</link>
		<dc:creator>craigr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 02:44:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawlingroad.com/blog/?p=1797#comment-430</guid>
		<description>Foglifter,

You do your best with the tools you have. Any diversification is better than none at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Foglifter,</p>
<p>You do your best with the tools you have. Any diversification is better than none at all.</p>
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		<title>By: craigr</title>
		<link>http://crawlingroad.com/blog/2009/05/19/sour-grapes/comment-page-1/#comment-429</link>
		<dc:creator>craigr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 02:42:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawlingroad.com/blog/?p=1797#comment-429</guid>
		<description>&quot;A lot of “scientifically optimized” portfolios that never had a bad calendar year in backtesting, had a terrible 2008.&quot;

Yep. I think what Browne and Coxon got really right was to look at the economic cycles as a driver of asset classes and not the correlations of asset classes alone. 

Some have been critical that the economic factors that drive the returns may not always be correlated to the asset classes in the future. This is possible. 

Yet in 2008, just like clockwork, when deflation was in the air the asset tuned to do best in deflation (LT Bonds) went into orbit just as economic theory would suggest.

So it seems the economic correlations have survived to fight another day.

Re: Munis

You are right. Those are exactly Browne&#039;s thoughts on the subject as I understood them. You are taking on these risks for potentially little after-tax gains. Right now we&#039;re seeing California on the verge of insolvency (again??). I doubt the Feds will let it happen, but it does show that credit risk at the muni level (even in a powerful economy like California&#039;s) is very real.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A lot of “scientifically optimized” portfolios that never had a bad calendar year in backtesting, had a terrible 2008.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yep. I think what Browne and Coxon got really right was to look at the economic cycles as a driver of asset classes and not the correlations of asset classes alone. </p>
<p>Some have been critical that the economic factors that drive the returns may not always be correlated to the asset classes in the future. This is possible. </p>
<p>Yet in 2008, just like clockwork, when deflation was in the air the asset tuned to do best in deflation (LT Bonds) went into orbit just as economic theory would suggest.</p>
<p>So it seems the economic correlations have survived to fight another day.</p>
<p>Re: Munis</p>
<p>You are right. Those are exactly Browne&#8217;s thoughts on the subject as I understood them. You are taking on these risks for potentially little after-tax gains. Right now we&#8217;re seeing California on the verge of insolvency (again??). I doubt the Feds will let it happen, but it does show that credit risk at the muni level (even in a powerful economy like California&#8217;s) is very real.</p>
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		<title>By: Max</title>
		<link>http://crawlingroad.com/blog/2009/05/19/sour-grapes/comment-page-1/#comment-428</link>
		<dc:creator>Max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 02:03:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawlingroad.com/blog/?p=1797#comment-428</guid>
		<description>A lot of &quot;scientifically optimized&quot; portfolios that never had a bad calendar year in backtesting, had a terrible 2008.

The seemingly naive 1/N allocation is actually quite smart. Of course, it helps if the N are as different from each other as possible.

Regarding munis...Browne&#039;s view was that the tax benefit is illusory. There is no real benefit after accounting for differences in yield, credit risk, call risk, illiquidity, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of &#8220;scientifically optimized&#8221; portfolios that never had a bad calendar year in backtesting, had a terrible 2008.</p>
<p>The seemingly naive 1/N allocation is actually quite smart. Of course, it helps if the N are as different from each other as possible.</p>
<p>Regarding munis&#8230;Browne&#8217;s view was that the tax benefit is illusory. There is no real benefit after accounting for differences in yield, credit risk, call risk, illiquidity, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: foglifter</title>
		<link>http://crawlingroad.com/blog/2009/05/19/sour-grapes/comment-page-1/#comment-427</link>
		<dc:creator>foglifter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 00:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawlingroad.com/blog/?p=1797#comment-427</guid>
		<description>I enjoy reading your posts, Craig. I think you outline the idea of Harry Browne&#039;s PP in plain English ordinary folks can comprehend. I&#039;m trying to follow the PP allocation, but since over 50% of my portfolio is in a lousy 401(k) I am forced to keep my fixed income in FTBFX, Fidelity&#039;s active total bond fund. So I have to live with the credit risk of corporate and high yield bonds.

Thanks for keeping the PP idea alive!

foglifter</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoy reading your posts, Craig. I think you outline the idea of Harry Browne&#8217;s PP in plain English ordinary folks can comprehend. I&#8217;m trying to follow the PP allocation, but since over 50% of my portfolio is in a lousy 401(k) I am forced to keep my fixed income in FTBFX, Fidelity&#8217;s active total bond fund. So I have to live with the credit risk of corporate and high yield bonds.</p>
<p>Thanks for keeping the PP idea alive!</p>
<p>foglifter</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://crawlingroad.com/blog/2009/05/19/sour-grapes/comment-page-1/#comment-426</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 20:17:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawlingroad.com/blog/?p=1797#comment-426</guid>
		<description>Thanks Craig.  I showed my dad HB&#039;s book and he has 100% of his retirement assets invested this way and is very happy.  Like Harry said, people who invest like this really won&#039;t be too concerned with market moves because at least one of their assets will be doing well.  

I like the allocation and do it with my 401(k) thru the fund, but can&#039;t get over the tax free muni mental hurdle with my taxable money.  You do a great job defending this portfolio on Bogleheads!

Ray</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Craig.  I showed my dad HB&#8217;s book and he has 100% of his retirement assets invested this way and is very happy.  Like Harry said, people who invest like this really won&#8217;t be too concerned with market moves because at least one of their assets will be doing well.  </p>
<p>I like the allocation and do it with my 401(k) thru the fund, but can&#8217;t get over the tax free muni mental hurdle with my taxable money.  You do a great job defending this portfolio on Bogleheads!</p>
<p>Ray</p>
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		<title>By: craigr</title>
		<link>http://crawlingroad.com/blog/2009/05/19/sour-grapes/comment-page-1/#comment-425</link>
		<dc:creator>craigr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 20:04:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawlingroad.com/blog/?p=1797#comment-425</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve read most popular index fund advisors. Some of them recommend buying emerging market bonds and junk bonds. Others advocate holding expensive and opaque collateralized commodity futures. Another was advising people to put 20% of their money into REITs in 2006 (at just about the peak of the real estate market!). 

Yet somehow you&#039;ll have critics saying that Browne&#039;s fairly conservative approach and advice is &quot;riskier&quot; than these other activities. It boggles the mind. 

Re: bonds 

You need to do what is comfortable with you. It&#039;s obvious you understand the risks/reward involved so if  you are happy with your decision I can&#039;t fault you (although I can still rib you over it :) )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve read most popular index fund advisors. Some of them recommend buying emerging market bonds and junk bonds. Others advocate holding expensive and opaque collateralized commodity futures. Another was advising people to put 20% of their money into REITs in 2006 (at just about the peak of the real estate market!). </p>
<p>Yet somehow you&#8217;ll have critics saying that Browne&#8217;s fairly conservative approach and advice is &#8220;riskier&#8221; than these other activities. It boggles the mind. </p>
<p>Re: bonds </p>
<p>You need to do what is comfortable with you. It&#8217;s obvious you understand the risks/reward involved so if  you are happy with your decision I can&#8217;t fault you (although I can still rib you over it <img src='http://crawlingroad.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  )</p>
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